A series of conversations exploring church and gathering

Born into a loving family, I never questioned its womb-like affection. Baptized as an infant in the Lutheran Church in what was largely a Norwegian folk community in a small town, Camrose, it also had a womb-like character easily taken for granted until struggles erupted, threatening the communion. It seemed given to me that the church was for a pilgrim people our harbour and school of faith – distinct from “the world” and its ways of being catering to power, prestige, and success. The church gestured towards other virtues, other ways of being. As my teenage years approached and my interest in theology began to flower, another eruption occurred in our little evangelical fellowship. It was traumatic for my father. In retrospect I think this event challenged my father’s “idolatry” of the church. It is so easy to assume that which is precious and sacred with the Divine. It was, as far as I know, a second such challenge for him, having assumed the first such encounter was an incident matter of personality and not endemic to the church – the church as a beloved fellowship and community of those seeking to be disciples of Jesus Christ who calls us “all to be one.” The legacy of these eruptions bequeathed to me at an early age a sense that the church was both an institution and what some theologians call “the invisible church,” which animates but is not confined to a local gathering of those with a common faith. Because of this early gift born of institutional struggle I have treasured and held lightly the local parish, the gathering of pilgrims. At the same time, I have worked at understanding what animates it best – the great cloud of witnesses and Holy Tradition, which are both immanent in local gatherings and transcends all institutional moments.

Over the last few years and exacerbated by the pandemic many clergy have found themselves questioning the shape and purpose of the church. Who is she? Is she, our denomination? Does she only exist when we gather? Does she exist on-line? Why gather? Along with these and other questions it is also noteworthy that many clergy are facing a crisis of vocation, and many parishioners have had their sense of ekklesia stirred or troubled.

In this series of conversation, Rethinking the Ekklesia, I talk with clergy and committed laypersons about how they understand the ekklesia and its work for the life of the world. In some conversations I am joined by Todd Wiebe, a pastor in Vancouver who anchors a set of lovely podcasts titled The Rector’s Cupboard https://www.rectorscupboard.ca.

These conversations span many and varied communities of faith – ancient, those born of the Reformation and various evangelical movements. The gifts of each will be apparent as will the struggles.

Welcome to our conversations as we think about the shape and place of the ekklesia in the life of the world.

Welcome to our conversations.

Todd Wiebe and Alison Williams join David Goa in reflecting on what is the church?; holy tradition and Orthodox spiritual theology; church, denomination and spiritual charism; the presence and fulness of the commonwealth of God; “the fall” as estrangement and self-forgetting; temptation; the “eighth-day of creation; Maximus the Confessor on The Church’s Mystagogy; ekklesia as layers of encounter; cosmos as hymn of praise; discipline; song of adoration.

I am joined by Todd Wiebe and Alison Williams in conversation with Rev. Ken Bell. Todd asked me to reflect a little on ideology and how it may easily turn theology into what is foreign to the Gospel. Following this brief reflection Ken Bell speaks about his early notion of the church as an extended family. In his time as an angelical priest his understanding moves through several stages: the church as “those who are called out”, as a vanguard for morality in an increasingly troubled society, and, a place of spiritual renewal. As his church moved towards a break with the Anglican diocese of Vancouver a question surfaced: “is the church the protector of morality or is it a gathering of those caring for all who are hurting in the world?” Is there a litmus test for belonging to the church?

Ken Bell is a spiritual director, a chaplain in long-term care residences and a former pastor to an Anglican congregation.

Welcome to our conversations as we think about the shape and place of the ekklesia in the life of the world.

I am joined by Todd Wiebe and Alison Williams in conversation with Tim Dickau, a conversation on the church for the life of the world. Tim was pastor of Grandview Calvary Baptist Church in Vancouver for thirty years. Those who gathered shaped an intentional community rooted in the local neighbourhood sharing their destiny with all who lived close by. Common practices anchored their life: participating in prayer and worship, seeking justice for the poor, engaging scripture, creativity, care for creation, and daily confession. Church according to their shared vision was the active forming of a life together attentive to the good that is present on the streets and in the lives of all who’s pathways they crossed.

Tim Dickau also teaches at Saint Andrew’s Hall, Vancouver School of Theology, and is the author of Forming Christian Communities in a Secular Age: Recovering Humility and Hope.

Welcome to our conversations as we think about the shape and place of the ekklesia in the life of the world.

Pastor Ingrid grew up in post-war Germany and navigated the trauma of the war’s shadow. She discusses the habit of taking refuge in church doctrine as a way of avoiding the responsibility for what unfolded in Germany; the church as a gathering of family and friends, of the like-minded, while teaching engagement with strangers; a church “turned inwards”. She speaks of the gifts she was given by the homeless who sought shelter under the porch at Trinity Lutheran Church in Edmonton; the deep regard for social justice that seemed, at times, to accompany a drawing away from worship and its gift of leading us to draw near to God’s presence; and, a sense of never being able to do enough for the healing of the world. She speaks of her vision of the church as a guest house for all focused both on confession, communion and working with a steady hand to heal the wounds of our common life.

In November of 2021 Pastor Ingrid became the pastor at Saint Mark’s Evangelical Lutheran Church in Vancouver, where she now serves in English and German.

I am joined by Todd Wiebe and Alison Williams in conversation with Pastor Martin Baxter. Todd asked me to reflect a little on the ambiguity about the place of the church and the shape of ministry, in many who treasure her, that has grown in recent years and surfaced with the pandemic.

Following this brief reflection Martin Baxter speaks about his early with the church in Ireland, a pastor’s refusal to bury his grandmother and the family’s migration to another congregation. Initially he understood the church as a loving fraternity of a people in waiting for the Eternal life. He came to understand her vocation for discipleship cultivating a relationship with others as Jesus Christ modeled and taught. Our conversation engages themes of the purpose of worship, the gift of gathering together, and the “deep need to soak up the good news” offered by the healer of the wounds of the world. Martin concludes our conversation with a poignant reflection of the thrust for and offer of freedom at the centre of human life.

I have had the pleasure over the last decade or so of thinking with Ray Sawatsky about religion and culture. I am delighted to talk with him in this series of conversations on the Ekklesia. He is an astute commentor on the entanglement between a number of political interests and evangelical church leaders. How have these entanglements shaped his generation’s growing unease and distance from the churches that shaped their childhood? 

Ray has worked very effectively with a number of para-church organizations, family charities, educational institutions and think tanks, all part of the broad evangelical world. Few have as rich a sense of the shape and reshaping of the evangelical tradition and there implications for both church and the larger culture. He explores the model of the evangelical churches international charitable work. In the last few years, he has been giving sober second-thought to much of what he has been a partner in. Where is “the other” in the evangelical world? Why the fixation on the sexual life? Is charitable work also a process of manufacturing “need” and the latest chapter in colonialism? Have we created a charitable industrial complex? Are megachurches a kind of spiritual Walmart? How did this unfold and where does it lead? 

Mikel Laurie is pastor of the Highlands Baptist Church in Edmonton. He previously served a United Church. His move from a progressive form of Protestantism to and evangelical church is of particular interest for our conversations on the Ekklesia.  

Our conversation moves from his initial work in the United Church, his studies at Regent College, the Vancouver School of Theology and Trinity Western University touching on his time with a peace minister into “the troubles” in Northern Ireland. Mikel is the only person I have known who has met face to face with Ian Paisley, the militant Protestant leader central to the fractured society of Northern Ireland in the 1960s and following. We explore the Baptist idea of doctrinal purity, the “attractional” model of evangelical worship centered on one form or another of spectacle. What attracts people to this model and what does it nurture in them? Has the pandemic ruptured this model of church? 

I am joined by Todd Wiebe and Alison Williams in conversation with Nate Collins. Todd asked me to reflect a little on the Protestant Reformation and its implications for thinking about who the Church is. One way of thinking about how this unfolded is to consider each denomination, at least in part, being the bearer of a particular charism, all of which belong to the Church universal. 

 Following this brief reflection Nate Collins, pastor of the Hillside Baptist Church, Vancouver, speaks of the church as the “people of God”, the “new Israel”, and the Gospel image of the “new vine.” His biblical studies at Regent College and Fuller Theological Seminary along with the impact of the work of N.T. Wright have shaped his thinking: a move from a “missional church” to a gathering of broken people in community for each other; worship as “speaking to God” to a daily life in which the encounter with others, including the stranger, is woven together by attentiveness to the transcendent; a life infused, not simply by religious feelings, but attentive to drawing near to others and, thus, to God.

I am joined by Todd Wiebe and Alison Williams in conversation with Professor Jason Byassee. 

Jason was raised in a Methodist congregation. It was his encounter with Baptists that sparked his hearts delight in the Gospel. He is unique in seeking to speak well of the church, seeing her with flaws and gifts, the “bride of Christ”, a “whore” as Luther said, “the great cloud of witnesses” and, nevertheless, “our mother” with gifts beyond measure. Our conversation considers models of “church planting,” the church as a spiritual fraternity, “the country club at prayer,” to the gift given to a congregation when it reaches out to those not part of its gathering, the fringes and marginalized living just outside the door. The Gospel, he says, “is something you only have if you keep giving it away.” The church, like the Seventy Apostles, is called to go out of its safe zones and seek to be friends with all in our world and join in communion with “persons of peace.” They bear a revelation for the church. He talks of the surprise in preaching, his conversation with the Hip Hop singer Shad and how preaching and Hip Hop may work to turn our “hearts of stone to hearts of flesh.” Preaching, like music, is sometimes magical.     

Jason Byassee is professor of preaching at the Vancouver School of Theology, serves a Methodist congregation is the author of some twenty books.   

I am joined by Todd Wiebe in conversation with David Jennings.

David recently retired from a distinguished law practice, served on many Presbyterian church boards and committees and continues to shepherd a number of charitable organizations largely working on behalf of the arts.

He grew up in a Presbyterian parish immersed in the common life that shaped old and young alike, and was nurtured its vigour teaching, weekly sermons and singing and its habits of service. We discuss this ‘parish’ model, its gifts and challenges and the implication of the loss of the immersive experience it provided. Both John Calvin and Karl Barth’s understanding of the church inform David’s understanding. Our conversation ranges over a series of themes: the temptations to coney into spiritual fraternities; the entanglement of both the conversative and progressive wings of the church in ideological politics; a shift from affirming the Nicaean Creed to affirming a political litmus test; “belonging’ verses marketing commitments; and, the wish for immediate resolutions on difficult questions of belief and practice unlike the ancient Church’s willingness to remain in communion despite differences and, overtime, sometimes years, work towards unity while treasuring difference.

David Jennings continues to think about the gifts of the church and work towards its enlarged ways of serving the life of the world.

I am joined by Todd Wiebe in conversation discussing Ivan Illich, particularly his argument about what has happened to the church and how it may unfold in the future. 

In the mid-1960s I spent a day on the westside of Chicago in the presence of Illich who was invited to engage a number of black pastors and community organizers. His pedagogical approach was astonishing. He sought a mutual language through which we could think deeply about institutions, revolution, and our relationship to the poor locally and in other countries. It was unforgettable and I pull forward a portion of this including his use (and, perhaps redemption) of two vulgar and common categories. While such words would never pass my lips his use of them that day is deeply provocative about who we are and how we think about the church.  

I have long considered Illich one of the most provocative and illuminating thinkers helping us understand the modern world. My conversation with Todd Wiebe was prompted by the recent publication of David Cayley, Ivan Illich, An Intellectual Journey (2021) and we both wanted to think along with him about who we think the church is.   

I am pleased to be joined by Professor Richard Topping for this on-going series of conversations on the Ekklesia. He is President of the Vancouver School of Theology, a federated faculty bringing together students and professors from a variety of churches. He has worked to ground theological education in the gift of Christian scripture, its revelation and call to faithfulness. He sees, clearer than most, the challenges facing churches in the twenty-first century and what Christian understanding offers for the life of the world. Professor Topping is unusual, combining superb scholarly gifts, the heart of a pastor, a fine teacher and excellent administrator. It is a rare combination.

We first met a number of years ago when I was curating the international exhibition Anno Domini, Jesus Through the Centuries for the year 2000. I discovered, quite by happenstance, that the marvelous hand-woven tapestry Suffer Little Children to Come unto Me by the artist Edward Burne-Jones (1833-1998) was the property of the Church of Saint Andrew and Saint Paul in Montreal. Richard Topping was the pastor of the church and was eager to see Burn-Jones’ work grace the exhibition. We met face to face some years later when he became Principle of Saint Andrews Hall and then President of the Vancouver School of Theology, at the University of British Columbia. 

Richard has a deep knowledge of the reformer John Calvin and the twentieth century’s great theologian Karl Barth. I want to know what each of them and what Richard made of the church, how they thought about her gifts and what she means in our world. I turned to Richard and our conversation ranged from the 16th century, through the Nazi period that captured so much of the church in Germany, to our own day and the gifts and missteps that mark churches and the faithful in our fragile world.

More conversations coming soon.